Do we work to live or live to work.

[Aussie K]

What on earth are our governments up too, increasing the age of retirement allegedly to increase our contribution to our pension funds due to us living a longer life. It has been said by a government minister that in the not too distance future 15 million people will will be put on the dole because of the use of robots. I thought it was stupid when it was first proposed and I think it is stupid now.
Automation easily advance quiker than old age gets older and a new way has to be found to see that the rewards of wealth-creationare gets distributed fairly.
It ought to be a period of wealth all around in this great technalogical age or is the world going to crumble under it.
The governor of the bank of England has given warnings of trouble ahead if some solution is not put into place to see that this fairer distribution of wealth.
I have had opposition on this forum when it was raised before so has that opposition reflected on there prievious thoughts.

[SL-Dave]

I read a book a while ago - science fiction - can't remember the title. It foresaw a typical life of 150 years, 0-20 at school, 20-60 at work, 60-100 retired living off of pension, and then back to work at 100 until death. It's a controversial idea of course, and it also relies on advances in medicine and healthcare so that people don't have dementia or cancer etc. It means that you work hard, and then play hard. It also provides a finite amount of time for your pension to pay out. Plus, at age 100 you should be wise enough to pass your knowledge onto the youngsters you work with!

[nikkai]

I think I am a lucky man. I worked to live for many a long year and forewent the holidays and new cars etc, I now work for enjoyment of the job *YES* despite my moaning's I actually like the job I am doing which is paying 1/3 of what I was used to earning! but then there is the NO stress, I am home every night, I have time off when ever I want it I have a great boss and he has a good team of workers (though there are always some that can be annoying)
So I still work to live but at a lot slower pace to that which I used to do, and I have convinced the wife to cut her part time hours down by half, this should either allow another to have her old hours or an employment for another PT worker.
I have passed on my knowledge to others though I am threatened with an apprentice at this job I have yet to find one who is willing to LEARN ALL but happy to want to just fit NEW parts rather then FIX those which are broken or just in need of a little TLC.

[frankiesays]

I really think the only answer is to put income tax up. There are less in work to pay for people living longer and what we currently pay in won't support it. I wouldn't mind paying more as long as all those currently dodging it were made to pay their fair whack and by that I mean businesses who use pre-ordained loopholes to get out of paying. Income tax up and abolish VAT.

[boatbuilder]

If all the loopholes were closed and all the taxes that SHOULD be paid WERE paid then there wouldn't be any need to consider increasing income tax.

[frankiesays]

maybe not.

[Aussie K]

That bb is like saying if we were all honest there would be no tax dodgers, but almost all of us are tax dodgers.
A fairer way might be to increase VAT and all will pay according to his wealth.
Neither of those idears will solve the problems it can only be solved by work sharing, or earlier retirement,
I tend to think a totally radicle solution might be if work for all was guarantied and as your particular work ran our you are automatically transferred to state employment.
That state employment could be any thing that needs doing, such as care for the elderly, refurbishment of the infrastructure and so much more.,

Almost utopian of coarse buts thats my idea and even that may not work. Suggest your own solution or shoot down this one.

[boatbuilder]

Well you can speak for yourself Aussie - but I pay all my taxes and always have done and at the same time make sure the taxman doesn't try to diddle me as he tried to many years ago when mortgage tax relief was built into our tax coding, but that's another story. As far as increasing VAT is concerned that wouldn't catch the Corporation Tax-dodging businesses which is where most unpaid tax could probably be recouped from.

I agree with your last paragraph though - though not 'almost' but 'definitely' utopian, if you want to live in a totalitarian state under a dictator.

[SL-Dave]

I also agree, best long term solution for this country is for taxes to go up generally. VAT should be 25% but legally fixed at that price for a minimum 5 years. Income tax rates should be assessed throughout the board, and a new tax rate introduced of those who earn over a million a year paying 80% like it used to be. For those that don't know, this would mean only amounts over a million taxed at that rate, not the whole amount. Not sure what top rate is now, used to be 40%. I think this bracket (earning over 50 thousand?) should be 50%. And those earning over 25 thousand paying 25% and those earning over 10 thousand paying 20%. I also think that NI should be abolished, merged with tax, but that's a whole new ball game. Most importantly, make people earning the top amounts actually pay what they are legally supposed to - no exceptions. That means people like Madonna paying 80% rather than the 9% she currently has managed to argue.

[boatbuilder]

Amansin, you're obviously not going to be very popular with the low paid workers in this country. You've already taken £200 off somebody earning £11,000 a year this year who wouldn't pay any tax at the moment and £300 off them in the 2017-18 tax year. I wouldn't disagree with a higher rate for those earning millions but I do recall there was something called the 'brain drain' once when high rates of tax for such earners in this country led to many taking their skills and expertise elsewhere, so depending on what the high rate is this could have a negative impact. Just collecting the taxes that should be legally paid to HMRC has to be the better solution.

[Aussie K]

Come on now taxing people who work to pay for 15 million who won't be working is not the answer and you must all know that it would not be a very satisfactory solution, the brains on this forum must be able to come up with a little bit more imagination.
When I was twenty one I was removed from my job to do national service in 1952 and it that didn't seem like a totalitarian state to me then. I wouldn't mind betting that you would change your mind bb if you were one of the 15 million made jobless by robots.
Also can you hold your hand on your heart and say that every thing you have sold and made a profit on has been declared be cause if you could you would be like a Russian athlete saying "No i have not been taking drugs" with tongue in cheek.

[boatbuilder]

I'm not sure where you are coming from Aussie. What makes you think I've sold anything and made a profit on it? I've never run my own business selling anything at a profit. Anything I've ever sold on a personal level has never been at a profit. A bit like running this forum which comes out of my own pocket with nothing coming in. I can't even claim any tax relief on it either. I certainly can't and won't be classed as a tax fiddler and certainly resent being compared to a Russian athlete. The only fiddle I have ever played has four strings and a bow.

If you or anybody else wants to confess to a tax fiddle then please feel free to do so on here.

Finally, I have been made redundant three times during my life - only one voluntary which is what I took for my own personal reasons 6 months before I was due to retire. Whether the other two occasions were due to robots or not makes no difference, it's still the same - you're out of work.

[frankiesays]

I think VAT should be abolished and income tax increased to make up for it and that's irrespective of whether income tax should go up anyway to cover shortfalls. VAT to me has always been an unfair "double-tax" as most of us have already paid income tax on what we earn and then have to pay it again on much of our monthly outgoings. It's such a huge cost overhead and most businesses (VAT registered) are merely unpaid tax collectors for HMRC at a big cost to themselves and virtually no gain.

[boatbuilder]

Surely it was much the same pre-VAT when we had something called 'Purchase Tax'?

Somebody must have collected the tax and paid it to the government.

[frankiesays]

Surely it was much the same pre-VAT when we had something called 'Purchase Tax'?

Somebody must have collected the tax and paid it to the government.

But that's long gone, this is the present. We should only pay tax on the same money once, just put up the rate and abolish VAT, simples.