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Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

A place to discuss and debate specific subjects
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Cowper
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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by Cowper » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:11 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

SL-Dave wrote:From an emotional point of view I would want revenge. It is a basic human response, and completely understandable. However, we should try to do better, be better
I'm trying to get my head around your views. You're obviously sincere in your beliefs, but would you put the same views if you were standing face to face with people who've had close family or friends blown to smithereens or who've been seriously maimed with life-changing injuries, over the course of the last three months in this country alone? If yes, I think we could safely assume that you'd be faced with furious anger and outrage. In that event, would you continue to put the case to them that we should try to understand these people, be kind to them, that WE should 'try to do better, be better'?

In an earlier post, and responding to the question as to whether radical extremists, having gone to Syria or wherever to learn the tricks of the trade from IS groups, should be let back into this (or any other) country, you asked 'where would they go?' and 'would we just make them stateless?'. I think the majority of people in this country at the moment, as well as France, Belgium, Germany, etc. would say, we don't give a damn where they go or whether or not they become stateless, we just don't want them back here. My view is that when people become radicalised, go abroad to be 'trained' then return to their 'home' countries (where they may even have been born and raised) then set about killing as many people as possible be they men, women or even young children, then they've totally forfeited all rights to any consideration, respect and definitely citizenship.

The vast majority of muslims are peaceful, law-abiding people who are a great asset to their adopted countries, who are as shocked and appalled as the rest of us, and often they express shame at the atrocities that are being perpetrated in their name. And yes, all peaceful efforts should be made to try to prevent future generations from becoming radicalised. But for the ones who already have been, who've become so indoctrinated by hatred and evil who may even now be planning the next atrocity, no excuses whatsoever can be made for them, and I think it's an insult to all the families who've suffered this year alone, and who are still red-raw with grief.

SL-Dave

Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by SL-Dave » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:13 pm

An interesting article from an Australian perspective...

Do we really want to swap our freedom for safety?

NEVER has there been so much lauding of our precious way of life while giving tacit approval for it to be undermined. Public anxiety about terrorist acts in the wake of the London Bridge atrocity and fear that Australia is a likely target has resulted in us talking of handing over our freedoms. The irony is biting. Those who want to instil fear must be very pleased. The light of human rights is dying and there is seemingly a broad, macabre celebration of its death. Retired senior military man Major-General Jim Molan this week suggested the time had come for us to give up more of our rights. He said the only factor in contention was whether it was before or after the next bad event. UK Prime Minister Theresa May went further, tweeting on Wednesday that if human rights laws get in the way of tackling terrorism and extremism, those laws will be changed.

http://www.perthnow.com.au/rendezview/d ... f86c83332b

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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by Cowper » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:49 am

SL-Dave wrote:An interesting article from an Australian perspective...

Do we really want to swap our freedom for safety?
I get the basic point of the article, that when we try to restrict the rights and freedoms of the baddies we also have to do the same for the good guys. The article poses many questions but doesn't really give any answers, but surely this is the point. No one has got the answers at the moment. Around the world now countries are struggling to know what to do about this latest scourge. In the meantime these murderous atrocities now seem to be coming thick and fast and governments, police and security agencies HAVE to be seen to be doing something, especially by the people who've been affected and whose lives have been shattered. Many planned terrorist attacks have been thwarted in this country alone in very recent times as a result of watch lists, security agency surveillance, etc. I assume many people were arrested during the subsequent police raids, and maybe some innocent people were caught up in this, but were probably then released. Many were arrested because they had some connection to the Manchester bomber, but quite a few were subsequently released without charge. I just don't know what else the authorities can humanly be expected to do, but they can't just do nothing.

A few years ago it was suggested that we all have identity cards and there was a huge outcry about this. I just don't know why. It was the thin end of the wedge, many protested, and Orwell's 'Big Brother' (1984) was once again dredged up somewhere. It wouldn't bother me in the least and many people came out in the press and media saying the same thing, that if you've got nothing to hide then you've got nothing to fear.

We are where we are, and terrorist attacks have now become a part of everyday life. Government agencies have to do something, and when you're trying to put out a massive fire you have to use powerful jets of water. Blowing on it gently just won't do it.

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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by boatbuilder » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:55 pm

Cowper, thanks for your last two responses in this topic which have been put together with great thought and composure and which I couldn't agree with more. You have echoed my own thoughts exactly on the subject ID cards - and many other similar issues when they rear their heads like the volume of CCTV cameras in this country - if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to fear. Well done!
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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by SL-Dave » Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:47 pm

There are two basic ways of dealing with issues in life, being reactive or being proactive. This is not just when dealing with terrorism, or crime in general, it is the same basic principles in all walks of life.

Being reactive would be reacting to things that happen. By that I mean, somebody commits a crime, and we react by punishing them for that crime. We might also increase our security systems in order to deter others from committing the same crime in the future.

Or, we can be proactive. We can recognise that for most of the time - admittedly not all the time - there is an underlying reason for that crime being committed. For robbery, it is often because somebody is desperate and needs to make some money, or simply steals food to eat. The way forward in being proactive would be to try and take actions so that that person would not have a need to commit a crime; this could be simply talking to them, or trying to help them perhaps by increasing their social benefits such as money from the government or food parcels.

With regards to terrorism, there are people who feel they have a legitimate cause for concern, a reason to fight back against those they feel are oppressors. We could wait for people to commit acts of terrorism and then punish them. We could inter those suspected of committing offences in the future. Or, we could try to get to the root reason why they feel the need to take action, and try to get them to see reason. The first two options are not ideal for long term purposes, as punishing them means people have already died, and costs the government money. Interring people also costs the government money, and we know this means either higher taxes or budgets cut from departments such as NHS and education. The cheapest, and best long term solution, would be to try and stop people from committing crime in the first place, by trying to understand them. After all, once someone has been reasoned with, and they have 'converted', they are the best possible people to go on and help others in a similar situation - they have the prior experience to empathise with others.

ID cards sound good, in principle. And we tried it as a test case several years ago. They cost a person £80 each, and the system to deal with the cards nationwide cost this country over £10 billion! The scheme was cancelled as it was too costly, too few people could afford the £80 fee, and it was discovered the scheme could not be integrated with other countries. The problems were several, one of which was that if you have a card you can enter where you will... and this also applied to people who had fake cards or had stolen cards from others. Another issue was where if a card had slight damage like natural wear and tear it could not be read by a machine meaning more issues were then created. A third issue was when the media discovered the government were planning on keeping more personal data stored on the card than was actually allowed by law, such as biometric data including digital scans of fingerprints and retinal scans - if these were copied by biometric scanners held by hackers then a person's data could be used against them without their knowledge. This has already happened around the world with the new(ish) NFC chips in contactless technology. The issue with ID cards is that yes, they are fine - as long as they are secure, and those in control of the data are honest in how our data is used. Unfortunately, I do not believe either of these are currently true.

Combine both of the above possibilities, and we have a nightmare hypothetical situation. Your personal data could be cloned from your ID card, and used by a possible terrorist. The cloned ID card could be used when purchasing items such as detonators or fertiliser, items that could potentially be used when making a bomb. The police/security services find this data in the course of their investigations, and decide to place you an an internment camp - all for the public good, to avoid a terrorist situation. You yourself are unable to see a solicitor or barrister as per the camp rules, and you have no right to a trial. You would be held, without charge, for as long as the government wants, without any way of clearing your name. It sounds far fetched, but it is of course possible. Indeed, this type of situation has already happened, with people having their ID cloned and then being sent to prison for many years, only to be cleared by using the new DNA technology. With internment camps, this type of situation wouldn't be extraordinary, it would become 'normal'. And the media wouldn't even be allowed to write about your plight, as this would be classed as 'aiding potential terrorist activity'. Again, that sounds far fetched, but in America and the UK, as well as around the world this already happens, newspaper banned from publishing stories or face imprisonment themselves.

The ordinary person would have nothing to fear. Until it happens to you.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...

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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by Aussie K » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:08 pm

I would come along with you also Cowper, surveillance camera.s on every street won't bother me at all.
SL-Dave, public anxiety is almost nonexistent and limited to the worry and concerns of the unfortunate souls who get caught up in it. I am loosing no sleep over the the fact that none of the perpetrators taking patron these terrorist acts did not survive the attacks.

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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by Aussie K » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:49 pm

If some one would explain to them terrorists that they won't get there 8 virgins when they die they might stop.

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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by nikkai » Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 pm

Aussie K wrote:If some one would explain to them terrorists that they won't get there 8 virgins when they die they might stop.
Never seen the fascination regarding virgins, it is only one go and then it isn't virginal after that? so Kill yourself then have virginal sex eight times! then a life of purgatory in hell fretting over how many real sexual encounters could have been had in a real life time. :think:
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Re: Internment: Could it help fight terrorism?

Post by Cowper » Mon Jun 12, 2017 12:30 pm

SL-Dave wrote:There are two basic ways of dealing with issues in life, being reactive or being proactive. This is not just when dealing with terrorism, or crime in general, it is the same basic principles in all walks of life.
We're miles apart on this one SL-D. We could bat this back and forth till the cows come home and still wouldn't be any nearer. Maybe it's an age thing, and you sound much younger than me. I respect your idealism but unfortunately I don't share it. I was a Pollyanna too, once, but I'm now morphing into Victor Meldrew. So on this issue I think we'll have to agree to differ!

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